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以色列新闻:中国人接管海法港之后,美国海军或许不会再到该港停靠 [美国网贴]

华盛顿消息:耶路撒冷邮报获悉,美国海军已经承认,一旦2021年中国公司接收海法港口,美国海军在这座民用港口的长期停靠活动可能出现变化,意图促使以色列国家安全内阁重新考虑这一安排。

WASHINGTON – The US Navy has acknowledged that its longstanding operations in Haifa may change once a Chinese firm takes over the civilian port in 2021, prompting Israel’s national security cabinet to revisit the arrangement, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

华盛顿消息:耶路撒冷邮报获悉,美国海军已经承认,一旦2021年中国公司接收海法港口,美国海军在这座民用港口的长期停靠活动可能出现变化,意图促使以色列国家安全内阁重新考虑这一安排。

Haifa, the nation’s largest port city, regularly hosts joint US-Israeli naval drills and visits from American vessels. But a 2015 agreement between Israel’s Transportation Ministry and Shanghai International Port Group (SIPG) – a company in which the Chinese government has a majority stake – has raised intelligence and security concerns that are only now prompting an interagency review.

该国最大的港口城市海法,定期举办美国-以色列的联合海军演习,并接待来访的美国舰船。但以色列交通运输部和上海国际港口集团(SIPG,中国政府持有这家公司的多数股份)2015年的一项协议已经引发了情报和安全方面的担忧,而这些担忧直到现在才引起跨部门的审查。

That agreement granted SIPG control over the port for 25 years. The Chinese company has committed $2 billion to the project and, according to state-run media, plans to transform the port’s bay terminal into the largest harbor in the country.

这项协议将该港口25年的控制权授与SIPG。根据国有媒体的报道,这家中国公司承诺将为本项目提供20亿美元,计划将这座港口的海湾码头变成该国最大的海港。

A representative of the Sixth Fleet said the navy’s partnership with Israel remains “steadfast.”

第六舰队的一名代表称,海军与以色列的友谊“稳固不变”。

“Our US Navy ships frequently visit Haifa, Israel, for both US-Israel bilateral military activity and port calls,” Commander Kyle Raines told the Post, when asked whether China’s coming presence might affect fleet operations in the Mediterranean city.

“我们美国海军的舰船,因为美以双边军事活动和港口调用两方面的原因,频繁的访问以色列海法市,”当被问及中国日渐增多的存在,是否会影响到该舰队在这座地中海城市的活动,Kyle Raines指挥官告诉邮报。

“For now, there are no changes to our operations in Israel,” the commander continued. “I can’t speculate on what might or might not occur in 2021.”

“我们在以色列的活动暂时没有变化,”这位指挥官继续说!拔椅薹ㄍ撇2021年什么会发生,或者什么不会发生!

Three sources familiar with the matter said that due to concerns that US defense officials privately shared with their Israeli counterparts, the Israeli government has launched “a review of the agreement at a high level,” specifically among members of the inner cabinet.

三名熟悉此事的消息人士称,由于美国军方官员私下与他们以色列同行分享的担忧,以色列政府已经开始“对这项协议进行高层次的重审”,特别是在内阁成员之间。

According to one source, several members expressed worry that sensitive infrastructure matters have not been properly vetted by Israel’s full national security cabinet prior to approval.

根据一位消息人士称,有几位成员表达了担忧,因为该项目在获得批准之前,敏感的基础设施问题没有经过以色列国家安全内阁的全面审查。

“You don’t want a decision that was made ostensibly for business reasons to have an impact on Israel’s relationship with the American navy,” the source said.

“我们不希望一个表面上是出于商业原因做出的决定,对以色列与美国海军的关系产生影响,”这位消息人士称。

The deal was signed off by Israel Katz, who was serving as transportation minister at the time and has remained in the position since. He occupies a seat in the national security cabinet.

该协议当时是Israel Katz签署的,他当时担任交通部长,此后一直担任此职。他在国家安全内阁占有一个席位。

A senior IDF officer confirmed that the review is under way. But it is unclear whether Israel has any recourse to allay US concerns with the China project, which is already sealed and in motion.

以色列国防军一名高级官员证实,审查正在进行中。但目前尚不清楚,以色列是否有办法缓解美国对中国项目的担忧。

“Historically, it’s interesting to see [that] the whole awakening is now when the contract was signed in 2015 – it begs the question what the hype is all about. It’s probably more conducive now because of the US-China tensions over trade, national security and the like,” said Assaf Orion, a retired Israeli brigadier-general and expert on Israel-China relations now based at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy. “There is always a question of encouraging investment versus managing risk.”

“从历史上看,这份协议是2015年签署的,而现在却出现了全面的醒悟,这种情形很有趣——让人怀疑这种大肆宣传究竟是出于什么原因。因为美中在贸易、国家安全以及类似方面的紧张情绪,现在进行这种宣传可能更有利,”以色列退休准将、以色列-中国关系专家,现就职于华盛顿近东政策研究所的Assaf Orion说!霸诠睦蹲视牍芾矸缦罩浼右匀ê獾奈侍庖恢贝嬖!

“The bottom line here is that Israel will make a fatal mistake by doing either or both of the following: disregarding China’s potential to advance Israel’s economy, and doing it with our eyes shut,” Orion continued. “We must keep our eyes open, fully aware of the risk management requirements and its possible impact on the US-Israel relationship.”

“这个问题的底线是,以色列可能会犯下致命的问题,对下述两件事都做,或者都不做:无视中国推动以色列经济发展的潜力,而且是在我们闭上眼睛的情况下,”Orion继续说!拔颐潜匦胝龃笱劬,充分认识到风险管理的要求,及其对美以关系的可能影响!

Retired Israeli and American defense and intelligence officials raised concerns throughout the summer that Chinese management of the port might jeopardize America’s operations there.

已经退休的以色列和美国国防及情报官员,整个夏天都在担心中国对港口的管理可能会危及美国在那里的行动。

The former head of Israel’s Mossad, Efraim Halevy, sounded an alarm in recent months over the security implications of China’s creeping presence across Israel’s critical infrastructure. And retired admiral Gary Roughead, ex-chief of US naval operations, warned that a Chinese-run seaport in the bay could force the navy to dock its warships elsewhere.

近几个月来,以色列摩萨德前负责人埃夫拉姆.哈勒维对中国在以色列关键基础设施上悄然出现的安全影响发出了警告。美国海军前作战部长、退役海军上将加里.拉夫黑德警告称,中国在这个海湾经营的海港,可能迫使美国海军到其它地方停靠军舰。

“The Chinese port operators will be able to monitor closely US ship movements, be aware of maintenance activity and could have access to equipment moving to and from repair sites and interact freely with our crews over protracted periods,” Roughead remarked during a conference last month at the University of Haifa.

“中国港口运营商将能够密切监视美国船舶的动向,了解维修活动,并能够接触到进出修理厂的设备,并在较长时间内与我们的船员自由互动,”拉夫黑德上个月在海法大学的一次会议上说。

“Significantly, the information systems and new infrastructure integral to the ports and the likelihood of information and electronic surveillance systems jeopardize US information and cybersecurity,” he added.

“值得注意的是,港口不可或缺的信息系统和新的基础设施,以及可能出现的信息和电子监控系统,将危及美国的信息和网络安全,”他补充说。

Israel has its own security concerns in Haifa to consider as well. The seaport in question is not far from an Israeli navy base where the country maintains its fleet of submarines, which foreign press has reported are capable of carrying and launching nuclear missiles. Domestic critics say that China’s shipping operations in close proximity to the fleet amount to an unacceptable security risk.

以色列在海法也有自己的安全问题需要考虑。这个港口离以色列海军基地不远,以色列在那里拥有自己的潜艇舰队,据外国媒体报道,这些潜艇有能力携带和发射核导弹。国内批评人士表示,中国的航运业务与船队距离太近,构成了不可接受的安全风险。

This would not be the first time that the Sixth Fleet altered its operations in Haifa due to security concerns. In the aftermath of the USS Cole bombing in Yemen in 2000, and during the Second Intifada, the frequency of port calls fell dramatically and USO Haifa was permanently shuttered.

这可能不是第六舰队第一次出于安全考虑,而改变在海法的行动。2000年美国科尔号驱逐舰在也门爆炸后,以及第二次巴勒斯坦大起义期间,港口停靠频率大幅下降,海法港口进行了永久性的USO(不明潜水物体)遮蔽。

But neither of those events were within Israeli government control.

但这两起事件都不在以色列政府的控制范围内。

The Prime Minister’s Office, Transportation Ministry and Foreign Ministry declined requests for comment on this report.

总理办公室、交通运输部和外交部拒绝就本报道发表评论。

【以下是评论部份】

Corbutte13
Can somebody who knows more than me explain if Israel is shifting towards China? Is this a good move?

有没有更了解内情的人,帮我解释一下以色列是否在转向中国?这是一步好棋吗?

melechshelyat9
No. Israel is hedging its bets, though, by ensuring it has trade ties with the growing Chinese economy, same as Europe.

不。但是以色列在分摊赌注,确保它与日益庞大的中国经济保持联系,欧洲也是这样。

zenicaone3
can you really hedge your bets if you are Israel?
US is the only country in UN protecting them via Veto power, for a long time now.
diplomatically they are totally dependent on US.

如果是以色列的话,怎么可能分摊赌注?
美国是联合国中唯一一个能为他们提供;,而且拥有否决权的国家,这种情况已经持续了很长时间。
他们在外交上完全依赖美国。

melechshelyat2
The Soviets previously supported Israel alongside the US. Yes, Israel can hedge their bets. Just as the Palestinians hedged theirs, never solely relying on the 50+ Muslim states that give them 1/4 of the UN automatically, every vote.

苏联以前跟美国一起支持以色列。是的,以色列确实可以分摊赌注。就像巴勒斯坦那样做,永远不要单单依靠50多个穆斯林国家(占联合国1/4)每次都自动给他们投票。

marlybarrow2
With AIPAC, yeah, they can.

只要AIPAC(美国-以色列公共事务委员会)存在,他们就不可能做到这一点。

MattaNoMore13
They’re not shifting towards China in terms of national interests, but any country with a GDP less than China’s is excited by trade and FDI prospects.

他们在国家利益方面并没有转向中国,但任何国家,只要它的GDP比不上中国,与中国的贸易和来自中国的投资前景都会令其激动不已。

ForeignHakka9
ut any country with a GDP less than China’s is excited by trade and FDI prospects.
What do you mean by that

“任何国家,只要它的GDP比不上中国,与中国的贸易和来自中国的投资前景都会令其激动不已!
这句话是什么意思?

MattaNoMore4
I mean Israel, like most other countries, greatly values trade, and China is a great trade partner. High population for consumption, rapidly rising GDP, and a desire to invest in the economies of trade partners (see OBOR/BRI)

我是说以色列,与大多数其他国家一样,十分重视贸易,而中国是一个庞大的贸易伙伴。庞大的消费人口、急速增长的GDP,以及投资贸易伙伴经济的愿望(看看一带一路)。

zkela12
any country with a GDP less than China’s
not really how that works

“任何GDP不如中国的国家”
这并不是真正的原因。

zkela11
explain if Israel is shifting towards China
This was a commercial deal. The countries have strong commercial ties.

“解释一下以色列是否在转向中国”
这只是商业交易。两国的商业联系很密切。

ZakuTwo12
China and Israel have had strong ties since the 90s. Just look at the Israeli hardware the PLAAF is using – J-10s, indigenous Python models, etc.

中国和以色列从上世纪90年代开始就交往密切。看看PLA空军正在使用的以色列装备:J-10系列,国产的巨蟒型号导弹等等。

MostEpicRedditor10
J-10 is not an Israeli design. It is partially inspired by it, but it shares much more commonalities with the indigenous J-9 (cancelled). It is no more of a copy of the Lavi than the Lavi itself is of an F-16

J-10不是以色列的设计。可能受到部分的启发,但它与国产的J-9(已取消)共同点更多。与其说它是以色列狮式战斗机的翻版,不如说狮式是F-16的翻版。

ZakuTwo9
The Z-10 was also supposed to be an indigenous design until this little tidbit was divulged. The only thing the J-9 has in common with the J-10 is the delta wing and canard planform, the Lavi has a much more direct design lineage to the J-10.

在小秘密被泄露之前,Z-10也被认为是中国本土设计的。J-9与J-10唯一的共通之处就是三角翼和鸭翼俯视图,而J-10更多的传承了狮式的直系血统。

Neu-Sociology12
Israel is not shifting towards China, but it is taking advantage of multipolarity.
If Israel shifts, its towards Russia. With 1.5 million soviet Jews, Israel and Russia share cultural ties and Israel in Russia’s eyes, is a semi Russian colony.
Saying that, Israel would not shift towards Russia unless the US started the shift and took moves against the Israelis first. The Israelis love the Americans, and they share more in common with the US.
Political culture, similar stories as nations of immigrants, melting pots(israel as a home for a variety of jews, from East Africa, North Africa, The Levant,to eastern europe, to central europe, to western europe), strong democratic institutions(stronger than much of central europe at least). Not too mention extensive military ties plus long historical alliance together.
Israel is an American satellite and is an especially willing one, the only reason it shifts is because its protector wills the shift.

以色列并没有转向中国,但是它享受了多极化的好处。
如果以色列转变,它也只会转向俄罗斯。凭借150万苏联犹太人,以色列和俄罗斯分享着文化联系,而且在俄罗斯看来,以色列是俄罗斯的一个半殖民地。
虽然这样说,但除非美国先转变,采取反对以色列的行动,否则以色列就不会转向俄罗斯。以色列人热爱美国人,它们与美国有更多的共同之处:
政治文化,相似的移民国家的历史,大熔炉(以色列是各种犹太人的家园,他们来自东非、北非、黎凡特、东欧、中欧、西欧),强大的民主制度(至少比大部分中欧国家强大)。更不用说广泛的军事联系和长期的历史联盟了。
以色列是美国的附属国,而且是一个特别自愿的附属国,它转变的唯一原因是因为它的;ふ咴敢庾。

thoth100012
Israel is going to shift towards Russia, the same people who armed and supplied the Arab nations for the last 70 years? The same Russia that all those Jews fled because of persecution and probably don’t have very good memories of? What are you basing this assumption on? Why would Israel shift to Russia?

以色列会转向俄罗斯?这个国家在过去70年一直在为阿拉伯国家提供武器和给养。所有犹太人都是遭到迫害才逃出俄罗斯的,他们可能不会有什么太好的记忆。你的这个推测有什么基础吗?以色列为什么要转向俄罗斯?

ToastyMustache11
Not to mention Russia’s support of state enemies of Israel such as Syria, Iran, and Palestine. The Israeli’s would need a very, very good reason to ally themselves with Russia against the US.

更不必说俄罗斯支持以色列的敌国,比如叙利亚、伊朗和巴勒斯坦。以色列人需要有个非常非:玫睦碛,才会与俄罗斯联合起来对付美国。

Neu-Sociology11
Russia doesnt support Palestine. It doesnt like Iran. It views Iran as similarly a threat, but less of one because “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. Iran can rile up muslims in the caucus regions, and support islamist rebels. Russia wants iran out of Syria, and has been acting with the Israelis on that.
Russia only supports Syria because of the mediterranean base. There is no love for assad there. There is a lot of ifs and ands to their mideast alliances with Iran, and that could all change.
The main thing israel would want is a UN veto. That Russia could provide.

俄罗斯没有支持巴勒斯坦。它不喜欢伊朗,对伊朗的看法类似于一种威胁,但是由于“敌人的敌人是朋友”,威胁的程度较低。伊朗可以激怒核心地区的穆斯林,并支持伊斯兰叛军。俄罗斯则希望伊朗从叙利亚撤军,并一直在这方面与以色列合作。
俄罗斯之所以支持叙利亚,只是因为它在地中海有基地。不存在对阿萨德的爱。他们与伊朗在中东的联盟存在许多假设和条件,这一切都可能改变。
以色列想从联合国得到的主要是否决权。俄罗斯可以提供。

Zeerover-2
That is a far too simplistic view, which forgets the role of the Russian Orthodox Church

这种看法过于简单化,忘记了俄罗斯东正教教会的角色。

Neu-Sociology1
The Russian Orthodox Church is more of an arm of the Russian state than the other way around. Much like French Gallacanism(When the Louis the 14th put the catholic church in France under his control instead of the pope), the Russian Orthodox Church justifies the actions of the State. Its for this reason that the Ukrainian Orthodox Church was given autonomy by the Patriarch in Istanbul. Otherwise, an independent Russian Orthodox church would have condemned russian aggression against fellow Orthodox christians.

俄罗斯东正教更像是俄罗斯政府的一部分,而不是反过来。就像法国的高卢主义(当时路易十四把法国的天主教堂置于他的控制之下,而不是教皇之下)一样,俄罗斯东正教也为国家的行为辩护。正因为如此,乌克兰东正教被伊斯坦布尔的主教授予自治权。否则,独立的俄罗斯东正教会谴责俄罗斯对东正教基督徒的侵略。

frontrangefart12
You make a ton valid points. The poster above is completely speculating and has no idea what he’s talking about

你的观点很有道理。上面的帖子完全是推测,完全不知道他在说什么。

Neu-Sociology9
Israel is making links to far right parties. The israelis are first about survival, pride second.

以色列正在与极右翼政党建立联系。以色列人的第一要务是生存,第二才是自尊。

zkela12
If Israel shifts, its towards Russia.

That’s an incredibly speculative scenario. And Russian patronage could never replace American patronage. The Russians have neither the means nor desire to give billions in aid to Israel annually.

“如果以色列转向,也是转向俄罗斯”
这种推测的场景很难令人信服。俄罗斯的资助永远无法取代美国。俄罗斯既没有手段,也没有意愿,每年向以色列提供数十亿美元的援助。

frontrangefart12
The insane part is that the poster thinks 1.5 mil is an impressive number. There are 6.5 mil in America for example.

让人疯狂的部分在于这个帖主认为150万这个数字很吓人。然而美国有650万犹太人。

zkela12
well, post-soviets are the largest immigrant group in Israel, something like 1/7 of the population (which is quite an impressive proportion)

好吧,前苏联人是以色列最大的移民群体,大约占该国人口的1/7(这个数字确实很吓人)。

Neu-Sociology11
And the israelis arent necessarily the most happy about the aid. Israel has to constrain itself a lot because of American influence on it. It doesnt build as much nor act as militantly because of American pressure. Most of that pressure has just been behind closed doors though. American has never unconditionally supported israel, (although Trump is the first president to actually come relatively close to that). Israel has acted relatively non aggressively because of American pressure.
The aid makes the israelis defense sector more dependent on America, and weakens it. Some on the israeli right oppose American aid for that very reason. israel would rather weaken social programs than military spending, and getting rid of American aid would give israel more freedom to act because of less American pressure(the Americans gain leverage because of the aid), and would be more helpful towards domestic arms industry. The newest bill and aid is going to weaken israels fighter jet program.
Now the aid does help in respects of mutual military research programs like missile defense shields and other things like missile research, drone research, and maybe satellite research. But otherwise, the aid isnt very necessary.

而且以色列人不一定对这种援助满意。由于美国的影响力,以色列不得不做出大量的克制。因为美国的压力,它没有建造太多,在军事方面也没有太多行动。然而大部分的压力都存在于幕后。美国人从来没有无条件的支持以色列(尽管特朗普是第一个真正相对接近这一点的总统)。因为美国的压力,以色列的行动相对的不那么激进。
这些援助让以色列的国防部门更加依赖美国,并且被削弱了。有些以色列右翼正是因为这个原因而反对美国的援助。以色列宁愿减少社会项目,也不远削减军事开支,而且放弃美国的援助,以色列会得到更多的行动自由,因为来自美国的压力也会比较少(美国人因为援助而讨价还价),而且对本国的军工业更有帮助。最新的账单和援助将削弱以色列的战斗机计划。
现在这些援助确实有助于双方共同的军事研究项目,比如导弹防御项目,还有比如导弹研究、无人机研究、或许还有卫星研究等其他项目。但在别的方面,这些援助并不是十分必要。

cptnhaddock8
Where are you getting your information? US aid to Israel has been mostly unconditional, and occasional attempts by the US to put conditions on the aid have been mostly snuffed out by the Israel lobby.

你的信息都是哪里来的?美国对以色列的援助大多数都是无条件的,而且美国在援助中偶尔提出的附加条件,大多数也被以色列游说团设法取消了。

Neu-Sociology7
The aid is unconditional, but aid gives leverage. The US leverages the aid to make sure israel cant do things it wants to do, and gives the US more influence over israeli decisions.

援助是无条件的,但是援助给了美国影响力。美国利用援助来确保以色列不能为所欲为,而且让美国对以色列的决策产生更大的影响力。

cptnhaddock7
Not very much leverage because Israel can call upon its very powerful lobby within the US to relieve the pressure.

影响力也没多大,因为以色列可以号召它在美国的十分强大的游说团体来消除那些压力。

zkela11
And the israelis arent necessarily the most happy about the aid.
The rational ones are pretty happy about it.
Some on the israeli right oppose American aid
In other words, fringey zealous warhawks and politicians grandstanding to their fringey zealous warhawk base.
As long as Israeli foreign policy is governed by a modicum of common sense, they’ll never be opposed to accepting the aid.

“而且以色列人不一定对这种援助满意!
理性的人对此相当满意。
“有些以色列右翼反对美国的援助!
换句话说,战争狂热的鹰派人士和政客们在对他们战争狂热的鹰派基地哗众取宠。
只要以色列的外交政策由稍有常识的人掌控,他们就永远不会反对接受这些援助。

Neu-Sociology11
Its not irrational to not like the aid. And it will become more common in coming years with a more critical American left and more…public pressure. The israelis dont like being too dependent on anyone, and their strategy is built to be able to shift international alliances. Its happened before, and they are prepared for it.

不喜欢那些援助并非毫无道理。而且在未来数年,随着美国的批评声音越来越大,公众压力越来越高,这种情绪会越来越普遍。以色列人不喜欢过于依赖任何人,他们的战略是建立在能够转变国际盟友的基础上。这种事情曾经发生过,而且他们正在为此做准备。

zkela11
And it will become more common in coming years with a more critical American left and more…public pressure.
If the conditions on the aid actually become more onerous then maybe it would become rational. But it would take a hell of a lot of conditions for it to become rational to reject billions/yr. The current situation is not anywhere close to that.

如果援助的条件真的变得更加苛刻,也许它就会变得合理。但是那需要很多条件,才能让拒绝每年数十亿美元的援助变成合理的选择。而当前的形势远非如此。

Neu-Sociology11
Israel doesnt get billions of cold hard cash to spend on whatever it likes. The new American aid deal just means it has to buy all American defense goods. So its just getting free American weapons, and contributes to research mutually beneficial for both countries.
Free American weapons hurts domestic israeli production. The fact that the new deal makes it 100% on American weapons rather than 75% as it used to be is evident of that, although it is more.

以色列得到的并不是数十亿美元的现金,也不能花在它喜欢的任何东西上。新的美国援助协议,仅仅意味着这些钱必须全部用于购买美国的国防产品。所以它只不过得到了免费的美国武器,有助于对两国互利的研究项目。
免费的美国武器会伤害以色列本土的军工生产。实际上,新的协议尽管金额更大,但必须100%采购美国武器,而不是以前的75%,这一点显而易见。

zkela11
just getting free American weapons
right it is “just” getting billions of $ of free stuff.
Free American weapons hurts domestic israeli production.
because it totally makes sense for Israel to be making its own fighter jets /s

“只不过得到了免费的美国武器”
说的对,他们“只不过”免费得到了数十亿美元。
“免费的美国武器会伤害以色列本土的军工生产”
因为以色列制造自己的战斗机是完全有道理的。笑.jpg

Neu-Sociology11
Israel is a major international arms dealer. Yeah it pretty much does. Its like top 10 I believe. Their domestic arms industry employs 10% of the population. While they get components from elsewhere, they make a most of it in israel.

以色列是一个国际军国销售大国。是的,确实如此。我认为它名列前十。他们本国的军事工业雇佣了10%的人口。尽管零件是从别处得到的,但他们大部分生产都是在以色列境内完成的。

Mighty_Zuk8
Just because Israel has a lot of Soviet Jews doesn’t mean it’s in any way affiliated with Russia. What, you think these guys are simple immigrants?
Let’s put it this way – I know a crap ton of Russians, and am a former Russian myself. But those who have any positive opinions about Russia, I can count on just one finger. Not hand, a finger.
Some (the younger generation who were born in Israel) are okay with going on a vacation to Saint Petersburg, but that’s about it.

仅仅因为以色列有很多苏联犹太人,并不意味着它以任何方式从属于俄罗斯。你觉得那些人是简单的移民?
我们这么说吧,我认识一大堆的俄罗斯人,我自己以前就是俄罗斯人。但是其中对俄罗斯有积极看法的人,我一个手指头都能数清楚。不是一只手,而是一根手指头。
有些(出生于以色列的年青一代)乐意去圣彼得堡度个假,但也就这样了。

Neu-Sociology7
It matters less how they view Russia, and more how Russia views them. And Russia’s view of them is positive and makes a kinship between Russia and Israel. There is also pro-putin politicians like Lieberman, whose base is russian voters. Which helps.
Russia views them as part of their diaspora and near abroad. Israel is a part of the Russophone, and that makes a connection between the two countries.

他们如何看待俄罗斯无关紧要,更重要的是俄罗斯如何看待他们。而且俄罗斯对他们的看法很积极,这就给俄罗斯和以色列之间拉上了亲戚关系;褂邢窭庋那灼站┱,他们的票仓是俄罗斯裔的选民。
俄罗斯把他们视为离散犹太人的一部分,以及近邻国家。以色列Russophone的一部分,这就早就了两国之间的联系。

Mighty_Zuk7
I don’t think Liberman is pro-Russia in any way, and perhaps you’ve forgotten the numerous wars that occurred between Israel and Russia.

我不觉得利伯曼在哪方面亲近俄罗斯,或许你忘记了以色列和俄罗斯之间发生的多次次战争。

Neu-Sociology7
….you mean none?
Wars between soviet backed states and israel? Sure there were a couple. But that was more than 40 years ago. The Soviet Union is dead with communism. Russia is not the same as The Soviets, dont conflate them.

……你的意思是没有?
苏联支持的国家与以色列之间的战争?当然,发生过几次。但那都发生在40年前。苏联和GCZY一起死掉了。俄罗斯跟苏联不一样,不要混为一谈。

Mighty_Zuk2
The old alliances pretty much stuck.

过去的同盟几乎停滞不前。

Mighty_Zuk9
Can somebody who knows more than me explain if Israel is shifting towards China?
Yeah, I can explain it: No.
Is this a good move?
It’s just some guy who doesn’t understand what a port looks like.

有更懂行的人能帮我解释一下,以色列是否在转向中国?
是的,我可以解释:并没有。
这是一步好棋吗?
这只是某个不明白港口是什么样的家伙的想法。

Trump4_20203
Israel is shifting towards China
Not going to happen, NO country is going to protect Israel like USA does. Israel is similiar to Canada, UK, Australia, Japan, etc. Where they are America’s strongest allies to the point that they might just be their 51st state.

“以色列正在转向中国”
不可能的,任何国家都不可能像美国那样;ひ陨。以色列类似于加拿大、英国、澳大利亚、日本等国。他们是美国最坚强的盟友,甚至到了可能成为第51个州的程度。

Mighty_Zuk8
One aspect that must be considered here is that the US Navy has docked its ships in the Haifa Port, and it remains the only port that can accept American ships.
The Haifa Port will continue to run for another 34 years by an Israeli company after a contract will be given in 2021. Same will happen to the Ashdod port.
Israel, however, is building 2 additional ports, one adjacent to the existing Haifa port (called Bay Port), and one adjacent to the existing Ashdod port (called South Port).
The new ports will be run respectively by Chinese and Dutch port running companies once the ports are constructed.
Unless the Americans are planning to start docking their ships in the new port and ditch the current one, I don’t see a reason to be worried about.

这里必须考虑的一点,就是美国海军在海法港口停泊,而且它是唯一一个能够接纳美国军舰的港口。
海法港口在未来3-4年依然由一家以色列企业运营,直到2021年合同将其移交给中国人。阿什杜德港也一样。
然而以色列正在建造另外2个港口,一个邻近现在的海法港(名叫海湾港),另一个邻近现在的阿什杜德港(名叫南港)。
新的港口一旦建成,将分别由中国人和荷兰港口运营公司运营。
除非美国人计划开始在新港口停泊他们的军舰,并抛弃现在的港口,否则我看不到为此担忧的原因。

El_Gran_Fantasma
This may very well be another article that “jumped the gun” and made the reader assume that it’s “just because of the Chinese factor” when it could very well be that the US Navy is ditching the old port for the newer port(s).

这很可能是另一篇“操之过急”的文章,让读者认为美国海军将放弃旧港口而选择新的港口,很有可能“仅仅是由于中国的因素”。

El_Gran_Fantasma
The US Navy has acknowledged that its longstanding operations in Haifa may change once a Chinese firm takes over the civilian port in 2021, prompting Israel’s national security cabinet to revisit the arrangement, The Jerusalem Post has learned.

“耶路撒冷邮报获悉,美国海军已经承认,一旦一家中国公司在2021年接收海法的港口,美国海军在这座民用港口的长期停靠活动可能发生改变,促使以色列国家安全内阁重新考虑这一安排!

jdb88813
No good natured jokes about the historical relationship between Jews and Chinese food?

没有人来讲讲犹太人和中国人的食物之间的历史悠久的善意笑话吗?

melechshelyat9
My favorite is the testimony of Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan during her confirmation hearing.
Senator Lindsey Graham asked her where she was on Christmas day. She said “You know, like a good Jew, I was probably at a Chinese restaurant”.

我最喜欢的是最高法院大法官Elena Kagan在审议听证会上的证词。
Lindsey Graham参议员问她在哪过圣诞节。她说:“你知道的,就像好犹太人一样,我大概会在某家中餐馆过!

Mcfinley10
8 days til Christmas Eve! The one day a year you can walk into a chinese restaurant and have everyone greet you in hebrew

离圣诞前夜还有8天!一年一度的那一天又快到了,你走进一家中餐馆,每个人都用希伯来语向你:亟谌。

hiacbanks12
if you know one please share

如果你认识一个犹太人,请与他分享。

willyslittlewonka11
Everyone knows the rich Chinese tradition of consuming Jewish delicacies like bagel and lox or calfs’ feet jelly /s

每个人都知道中国人有吃犹太美食的丰富传统,比如百吉饼、熏鲑鱼或小牛脚果冻。

zkela11
sorry to be a killjoy, but this joke doesn’t make sense in the Israeli context. Christmas isn’t a national holiday in Israel. So there’s no meme about eating Chinese food on Christmas.

很抱歉让你扫兴,但是这个笑话在以色列的语境中是没有意义的。圣诞节不是以色列的法定假日。所以圣诞节吃中国菜没有什么文化基因。

zeev198812
this a storm in a tea cup and a hypocritical one a that
the old cargo port and military port stay the same (israeli government owned and operated)
the new cargo port will be run by a chinese commercial operator (israeli government owned)
i fail to see any issue beyond american hypocrisy and paranoia ( the us can avoid the new port with its warships )
btw today american warships dock in hong kong and in piraeus both owned by the chinese government
the new port is 70% done we will not change our national development plans for the usn
after all docking forward deployment and repair services in haifa are all in us national interest

这是一场茶杯里的风暴,而且很虚伪。
老的集装箱港口和军港保持不变(归以色列政府所有并管理)
新的集装箱港口将有中国一家商业运营商运行(以色列政府所有)
在这篇文章里,除了美国人的虚伪和偏执(美国可以让它的军舰避开新港口)之外,我看不出来任何问题。
顺便说,当今美国军舰停泊的香港和比雷埃夫斯港都归中国政府所有。
新港口已经完成了70%,我们不会为了美国海军而改变我们国家的发展计划。
毕竟海法港口的所有停泊部署和维修服务都满足了美国的国家利益。

zkela12
perhaps the americans would be satisfied with an agreement over security and procedure.
edit:
According to one source, several [Israeli cabinet] members expressed worry that sensitive infrastructure matters have not been properly vetted by Israel’s full national security cabinet prior to approval.

或许超出安全和程序的协议才能让美国人满意。
编辑:
“根据一位消息人士称,有几位成员表达了担忧,因为敏感的基础设施问题在获得批准之前没有经过以色列国家安全内阁的全面审查!

zeev198811
israeli think tank society is filled with ex militery types with usa links both commercial and professional
as does the israeli political class
the fact is that no one was willing to give out his name or get into any specific problem with the new port
is proof enough for me that this is a hit piece by interested parties exploiting the sensitive us-israel relationship
and not a serious issue

以色列的智库充斥着前军方人员,他们在商业和职业方面都与美国联系紧密,以色列的政治阶层也是一样。
事实上,没有人愿意暴露自己的名字,或者卷入新港口的具体问题,在我看来,这就足够证明,这是一篇利益团体利用敏感的美以关系炮制出来的煽动性文章,不是什么大问题。

zkela11
so you don’t give much shrift to the following. These seem like fairly specific and reasonable complaints from the US side:
And retired admiral Gary Roughead, ex-chief of US naval operations, warned that a Chinese-run seaport in the bay could force the navy to dock its warships elsewhere.
“The Chinese port operators will be able to monitor closely US ship movements, be aware of maintenance activity and could have access to equipment moving to and from repair sites and interact freely with our crews over protracted periods,” Roughead remarked during a conference last month at the University of Haifa.
“Significantly, the information systems and new infrastructure integral to the ports and the likelihood of information and electronic surveillance systems jeopardize US information and cybersecurity,” he added.

那么你对下面的说法就没有太深的理解。这些似乎都是出自美方的相当具体和合理的抱怨:
“美国海军前作战部长、退役海军上将加里.拉夫黑德警告称,中国在这个海湾经营的海港,可能迫使美国海军到其它地方停靠军舰!
“中国港口运营商将能够密切监视美国船舶的动向,了解维修活动,并能够接触到进出修理厂的设备,并在较长时间内与我们的船员自由互动,”拉夫黑德上个月在海法大学的一次会议上说。
“值得注意的是,港口不可或缺的信息系统和新的基础设施,以及可能出现的信息和电子监控系统,将危及美国的信息和网络安全,”他补充说。

zeev198811
so some ex us navy guy probably from some washington think tank makes a speculative statement
no i don’t give any significance to his complaints
what is the intelligence value of commercial traffic data for a superpower like china that has tracking satellites to follow usn ships around
especially since precedent exists for usn physically entering chinese operated ports in greece and hong kong

不过是某个可能出自华盛顿某智库的美国海军退休人士做了一番推测性的陈述。
不,我不认为他的抱怨有什么意义。
对于像中国这样拥有跟踪卫星来跟踪美国军舰的超级大国来说,商业交通数据有多少情报价值?
特别是已经有了先例,美国海军真正进过中国在希腊和香港运营的港口。

zkela11
especially since precedent exists for usn physically entering chinese operated ports in greece and hong kong
just because the US does operate in those ports, doesn’t mean that they wouldn’t prefer the ports were not Chinese-run. The fact that the ports are Chinese-run may make them less secure for the Americans, and necessitate expensive and annoying security procedures. Given the closeness of the US-Israel alliance, I’d say American concerns should be given some weight in a major security infrastructure decision like this.

“特别是已经有了先例,美国海军真正进过中国在希腊和香港运营的港口!
美国确实在这些港口活动过,但这并不意味着他们不希望这些港口不是中国人经营的。这些港口是中国人经营的,这一事实可能会让美国人觉得不那么安全,并需要昂贵而恼人的安全程序。鉴于美以联盟的紧密关系,我认为在这样一个重大的安全基础设施决定中,美国的关切应该得到一定的重视。

zeev198811
repeat after me the old commercial port and the military port and the shipyard remain the same (100% israeli)
the usa no longer exports heavy duty infrastructure projects (like ports)
the chinese offered a fast reasonably priced project the usa needs to get over itself

请跟我念:旧的商业港口和军事港口以及船坞保持不变(100%归以色列所有),
美国不再出口重型基础设施项目(比如港口),
中国提供了一个建设快速而且价格合理的项目,美国有情绪的话请自己克服。

zkela11
you may be right that the deal stands on its merits, but I think it would behoove Israel to get their American partners onside (as they seem to be trying to do).

你可能是对的,这项协议有其价值,但是我认为以色列应该让他们的美国伙伴站在自己一边(就像他们似乎试图在做的那样)。

zeev198810
if it involves some empty promises and some minor monetary effort (software and procedure changes) sure let them have it
but this is an important developmental project it will not stop to make uncle sam feel less paranoid

如果涉及到某些空洞的许诺和某些数额不大的资金往来(软件和手续的改变),当然可以满足他们,但这是很重要的发展项目,不会为了让山姆大叔少一点偏执而停顿。

zkela10
uncle sam feel less paranoid
US counterintelligence concerns about China are not prima facie paranoia. There is a real, high-stakes, and bloody competition going on.

“山姆大叔少一点偏执”
美国对中国反间谍活动的担忧并非表面上的偏执。这是一场真正的、高风险的、血腥的竞争。

Piscator6297
Back in 82 I was n a carrier pulling into Haifa and our visit was cancelled 40 miles offshore because Israel forgot to tell us they were invading Lebanon that morning. Haifa is right on the border. We ended up doing 6 weeks off of Beirut waiting to evacuate the embassy. I got a battle ribbon for it and never saw land.

回顾82年,我曾身处一艘航空母舰之上,它正在驶入海法港口,但是因为以色列忘记告诉我们他们那天早上入侵了黎巴嫩,所以在海岸之外40英里处,我们的访问被取消了:7ㄇ『迷诒呔成。我们最终在贝鲁特放了6个星期的假,等待大使馆的疏散。我因此得到一条作战丝带,却从来没有看到陆地。
?
UtopiaPolitics6
Turning over so many infrastructure programs to companies based in countries that have a history of subverting civilians and corporations to conduct espionage is incredibly dumb.

有个国家劣迹斑斑,他们吸收平民和企业从事间谍活动,把这么多基础设施项目交给出自这个国家的那些公司,这种做法极其愚蠢。

TooMuchToSayMan4
I mean hopefully this will stop countries from taking loans from China. They are the Payday lenders of the world.

我是说,希望这件事能够让各国不再从中国贷款。他们已经成为全世界的金主。

GavrielBA18
Can anyone actually win this intelligence war against China?

有谁能真正赢得这场与中国的情报战争?

RussianConspiracies216
what do you mean?
In the first place, an intelligence war isn’t exactly open to the public to judge, so there isn’t any way for us to judge who is winning, if its even as simple as that.

你想说什么?
首先,情报战争并未完全向公众开放随意评判,所以即使那样简单,我们也无从判断谁在取得胜利。

hiacbanks12
well, if you only tune in to certain media, it’s all about China spy on US.

好吧,如果你只收听特定的媒体,那么全都是在讲中国窃听美国。

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